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Henry Badery: Hello, and welcome to Open Source For Business brought to you by OpenTeams. I’m Henry Badery and I’m the growth marketer here at OpenTeams.
Stormy: Thanks, Henry. I’m super excited to be here.
Henry: Really excited and welcome to the podcast. Now, I know you’ve been involved in open source for more than two decades now and you’ve given presentations around the world and you are definitely one of the biggest leaders and thought leaders in open source software. But how did you first actually get into open source and how did you get where you are today?
Stormy’s journey as a pioneer of the first Open Source Program Office (OSPO) to running Microsoft’s OSPO
Stormy: So I first got into open source when I was managing the CDE team at Hewlett-Packard, and CDE is like the user interface for Unix and I went to the standards meeting and I had a team of like 20 people fixing defects and adding features on CDE and I discovered that San and IBM and others also had teams of people fixing the exact same defects and I was like, wow, this is really crazy, like we’re all doing the same work, felt like we’re back in college again and the professor was like giving us an assignment we are doing the same thing and this was just about the time that Linux was coming out, so as soon as Linux came out, I was like, wow, they not only have like one, but two desktops that have GNU and KDE and surely we could use one of those and the rest is history.
It turned out not to be a technical problem, like, we were able to come to port GNU to HPUX, I was working with a company called Helix Code at the time, later called Zemian, but it was a business problem, telling people what open source software was and how it worked and that we weren’t going to accidentally copyleft all of HPUX, give it away for free.
Henry: Fascinating. And what was the Enterprisers attitude or HP in particular, but also what was the industry’s attitude towards open source at that time?
Stormy: At the time, nobody knew what it was, so there wasn’t an attitude either one way or the other, but over time it was definitely one that people wanted to participate, but they had a lot of concerns about just not knowing what it was. So I ended up working myself into a job, I created one of the very first open source programs office at HP and then I helped customers figure out how to use open source software and ended up talking around the world about our experience and actually made it to the Sydney ones, which I think is your neck of the woods when it comes to talking at conferences.
Henry: You went to the Harbour Bridge?
Stormy: I did.
Henry: You did?
Stormy: I really like this walking tour I took where they showed us like pubs where people got, like, trying to take it down out into the sea and ships.
Henry: I haven’t done that yet. Where was that?
Stormy: It’s like the old part of town up on a hill, and there was a church that had the stained-glass windows that were the inspiration for characters in the book playing Bidiboo, which I had no idea had taken place in Sydney but remembered reading as a child.
Henry: Fascinating. It’s very fascinating and just back to your history and your journey and evolution in open source. You started at HP, what was next for you? Where do you think you really knew that you wanted to devote your career towards open source?
Stormy: Yes, I spent a while at HP doing open source, I was there for 10 years, started the open source programs office, helped customers, was working with HP Consulting to see what we could do there, but I knew I really wanted to help more people and more companies use open source. So, I left there to go to a startup that was helping Fortune 500 companies use open source software in a way that they were comfortable with, so I did that, went to nonprofits for a while as executive director of the GNOME Foundation, went to Mozilla Firefox, kind of came full circle. Now I’m back at Microsoft running an open source program.
Henry: That is fantastic. I know one thing that you’ve definitely focused on in your career is building open source program offices, both at HP but also running Microsoft’s now. So for those listening, what is an open source program office?
What is an Open Source Program Office?
Stormy: Yeah, and what it is and where it sits, what all it does depends a bit on the company. So like HP an open source program office and Microsoft had open source program office, which makes more sense in these days and day and age because we do more, but essentially our job is to help Microsoft use open source software effectively within their software strategy, so we make sure that it’s easy for developers to use open source software, we make sure they’re in compliance when they decide to use it, that they’re doing the right thing by the licenses, so our job is to make it easy and safe and legal for everybody to use open source software as they choose to within their business strategy.
Henry: Okay, and why would any company want an open source program office? What benefits do you accrue as time goes on?
Why would any company want to set up and OSPO?
Stormy: There’s lots of benefits to open source software, you can develop, you can innovate faster, you can work directly with your customers and your partners, you can save money by using existing software instead of reinventing the wheel, tons of great reasons to use open source software.
If you have an open source programs office, you can make sure you’re doing it the right way, so they’ll help you do it effectively and safely, make sure you’re in compliance with licenses, that you’re connecting with others, that you’re doing best practices from across the industry.
Henry: And what are some of those best practices? Just that you mentioned it.
Stormy: There’s lots of best practices, the one that we do is like we automatically detect open source software when people do their builds at Microsoft and then we use a project called Clearly Defined, an open source software project to figure out what license is associated with that project, we recommend contributing back to the projects if you decide there’s an open source software project that you that you really want to use and you download it and has an issue, everyone’s first instinct is to kind of fix the issue and keep going, but a best practices to contribute that back in the form of a pull request, so it goes back to the original project and then it gets maintained with the whole project running a fork. So, lots of best practices in open source software, enough for a bunch of us to have careers around it.
Henry: Yeah, definitely and I’ve now I’ve talked to Gil Yehuda, Guy Martin and a lot of other people that’s actually been guest on the podcast and they’ve all had careers building and managing open source program offices, because I think it really has grown. In the last 10 years what is the shift or when did you see the shift to where, obviously HP was quite an early company of setting up an open source program office, but when did you see the shift where other enterprises, other large enterprises started setting up their own open source program offices?
Stormy: That’s a good question. I couldn’t pinpoint a year when other companies started having open source programs offices, but I’ve definitely noticed in the last five to 10 years that you’re not just seeing big software companies, you’re seeing like automotive companies, you’re seeing banks, you’re seeing large retail companies that people interact with every day, so companies that aren’t software companies, but they have software as part of their infrastructure, are now not only using open source software, but creating open source programs offices to make sure that they’re getting the most out of it, that they can contribute back, that they can start projects of their own when it makes sense.
Henry: Okay, that makes a lot of sense, and I think one thing is to say, if you are an automotive company, say, compared to a primarily software company, is there a big difference in what those open source program offices look like, or are they kind of the same idea, they carry the same ideas?
Stormy: They’re mostly the same ideas. That’s a good question. So they’re mostly the same, how they choose to use open source software in their software strategy might differ, I think one of the things that the open source software really gives companies that are new to it is a way to collaborate with people that would normally be their competitors, so there are nonprofits like the Linux Foundation that enable that cooperation between competitors, so they’re not all reinventing the wheel, but they’re building a base that they can all then offer their value add on top of, so I think that’s quite new.
How to set up an OSPO?
Henry: Quite a new motive and it is so exciting to be working in the field and just seeing these large companies take using open source more than proprietary these days, but if I am someone who’s working at a company, imagine I’m a manager or an executive and we don’t have an open source program office in our company. How do you go about setting up an open source program office?
Stormy: Yeah, that’s a really good question, and when I actually get to talk about a lot, because we have customers that will reach out and say that they’re interested in using a bizarre software more interested in setting it up an open source programs office, and usually whoever reaches out, their first question is like, well, where should it be? Like, I’m in engineering, should it be an engineering or should it be illegal? And my answer to that question is, first of all, whoever’s willing to champion, like awesome, like they are the right person to start it, because they believe in it, they’re passionate, they’ve been thinking about it, but where it sits is less important than who it involves, so it needs to involve legal, it needs to involve engineering, it needs to involve marketing, it needs to involve all those groups and that is key, so that’s the first step. Was that your question about how to get it started?
Henry: Yeah, definitely how to get it started and in this current climate with Coronavirus and everything that’s happened, we’ve seen companies really shift from focusing on profit to focusing on savings, so how do you justify when a board of executives, if you already have an open source program office, that it’s worth keeping around?
Stormy: So I don’t often see that come up question, usually open source programs offices are pretty small, like ours is just a handful of people, although we work with groups across, we have an open source engineering team and we have a group of attorneys that we work with and other groups, but the savings from open source software, not just reusing existing software, but opening up your software, being able to collaborate directly with the customers, the savings is so huge, the accelerated innovation is so good that it’s not usually something people want to cut.
Henry: And are those savings, are they very easy to calculate or how do you justify that you’re getting the ROI on your open source program office?
Calculating the ROI of an OSPO
Stormy: So I’ve seen a lot of people try to come up with dollar amounts and you can come up with some dollar amounts, I don’t think it’s usually one on one, I don’t think it’s usually real clear cut number, but usually it’s pretty obvious and it’s not even that you’re saving the money, it’s just that the solution that you want to use, so like Linux and Apache and the open source databases like those are things that everyone just almost needs to use, so it’s not so much that you’re saving money of a proprietary software just like that is part of what you need to do business.
Henry: Okay, that makes a lot of sense and on the topic, I guess, of talking about measuring the success of an open source program office, what are some other important KPIs that you measure at Microsoft that you’ve seen as a kind of a best practice for industry?
Stormy: Yeah, so we’re trying to measure things that show whether or not we’re accomplishing our goals and for us, our goals are changing the culture to be more open source friendly, so we can use it effectively, friendly is not quite the right word, but making sure we’re using open source software in an effective manner, so we’re measuring how many of our developers are actually working in open source, at Microsoft we have about fifty thousand developers and thirty thousand of them have GitHub accounts, so that’s a huge number of developers that we have that are working in open source software in some way, shape or form, we look at how active they are, we look at who’s working on the projects that we open source like, are we diverse? Are people coming? Are they interesting to our customers and other people in the world? We look at, are we contributing back to the projects that that we use? So we measure a lot of activity and interactions.
Henry: Okay, that was great advice, and I thought I could step back a little bit and almost like in a time machine, and if we could look at the difference in the open source program office at HP, assuming they’re the same company to what Microsoft Open Source Program Office looks like today, what are the main differences that you see have, I guess, evolved with open source when it comes to open source program offices?
How OPSO’s have evolved within companies over the decades
Stormy: So I think a lot of the evolution is we understand the licenses a lot better, when open source software first got started, open source licenses were really new, they were often written by developers, not by attorneys and then attorneys – there’s actually a license that says if you use the software, you’re welcome to it, but if you see me at a conference, you have to buy me a beer and a company I was working with was like, how are we going to know if one of our employees sees this guy? Like, how are we going to know if we comply with this license?
Henry: I hope you got many beers from that man or that woman?
Stormy: I don’t believe I’ve met the person, but it was a guy’s name.
So licenses were brand new and they’re written by non-attorneys, in the beginning it was a lot of like parsing license and what did that mean and did we want to use permissive licenses or copyleft licenses and we’ve definitely evolved along that chain, like there’s a lot of best practices, companies usually know what licenses they’re comfortable with, there’s a better understanding of them. I think now the onus is on like trying to preapproved, to put that word on it as much as possible, so in Microsoft, we try not to get in the developers way, so once we detect the open source software, we look up the license, if it’s like an MIT license piece of software that we’re very familiar with, we’ll just let it go, like, we don’t have to stop them or ask them any questions or tell them they can’t use these, no beers, give them a picture of the guy and say, if you see him.
Henry: Have a bear!
Stormy: It’s going from a lot of trying to figure out what it meant to like making it super easy.
Henry: Okay and now that you’ve been working at Microsoft, is it more than a year now that you’ve been working there with open source program office, what are some of the things that you’ve been working on in that last year? Because we know that Microsoft is definitely leading the movement of open source software for enterprises these days.
What things Microsoft has been focusing on within their OSPO
Stormy: So we’re definitely, Microsoft itself has made a lot of progress, so we’re trying to share what we’ve learned with our customers and our partners and we’re also trying to share it within Microsoft, some groups within Microsoft are super familiar with open source software and doing a really awesome job, if you look at like DotNet or VS code or typescript in particular, the developer tools group, then we have other groups that are much newer to open source or just starting to incorporate them into their strategies, so we’re trying to share best practices like that across the company, we do it at an executive level, we have an open source executive council that meets quarterly to share best practices, kind of like a business level and to look at any policy changes we might want to make and we also do it like a developer level, we have a group of, we call open source champs, from across Microsoft that meet and talk about what it’s like to use open source on the org and what best practices do they have and they try to share their to.
Henry: Okay, and I know that, like you said, it’s definitely come a long way and you’ve learnt a lot, Microsoft itself as a company publicly came out, an executive there said that open source is a cancer and yet now they’re at the forefront of the open source movement. Do you still encounter any naysayers today either about your job or the role that you’re promoting?
Stormy: I don’t encounter many naysayers, I do encounter people that are surprised, like surprised that Microsoft uses them on open source, it does, so that we contribute back or that I was going to Microsoft, but I was pleasantly surprised when I explained the amount that we use open source software.
Henry: Okay, the other day I had Gill here on the podcast, he was the first, he came on as the first guest. He said that he used to be against open source and then he just listened to people and learned and realized how great it was, so those people, are they sort of set in their mind or can they, once you explain it to them, and the benefits and how it works, do you find that they usually change their perspective towards open source?
Stormy: So, the people, we mean people within the company that might have not been supportive?
Henry: People from the company, like you said, the people that were surprised.
Stormy: I found it was people outside of the company who were surprised towards Microsoft. Open source software Microsoft was using, but for people that are skeptical about open source software in their company, I think it’s just usually not knowing much about it, like it’s just a big unknown, at a previous company I worked at, there was a particular man in the sales team who just never quite got it, every time we’d have a beer at an event or something, he’d be like, so Stormy, why are these people doing this in their free time? And at some point, I was like, I think you just need to go write some software and you will see how much fun it is to write software to solve the problems you want to solve in the world.
Henry: Okay, and then did become a software engineer after that or he stayed in sales?
Stormy: He’s still in sales I think, he’s a good sales guy.
Henry: So, if we could, I guess, sum up just the conversation we had about the open source program offices, what do you think is some of the most important things that you’ve learned over the past two decades with most of your career being in setting up and managing open source program offices? What are the most important things that you’ve learned?
Key learnings Stormy has had over the last two decades
Stormy: Yeah, so what I touched on earlier is that it’s really important to include all of the different functions in your organization, so I’ve worked with really awesome attorneys, I find that people in my personal life, when I say I love working with attorneys, kind of look at me strange, but in open source software and the attorneys that are interested in open source software are super fun to work with, like, they’re really passionate about it and they’re really helpful and I’ve learned a lot from them, so I think all the different functions from attorneys to marketing to developers to the high level executives, having all of those people working together, is really key to making sure a company has successful open source software strategy and then another key to success that I think gets lost sometimes is is actually connecting with the people who software you’re using. Like, I think sometimes we sit in front of our computer and maybe we do pull requests or we submit issues, but we need to make sure we also personally get to know some of the people, at a virtual conference these days or actually meet who they are behind the software.
Henry: And what does that look like? So, you go to a virtual conference, obviously, it’s difficult in this climate, I can see why would you go to the virtual conference, but would you go to conferences, pre Covid or what are some best practices for going out and I guess involving and understanding the community before you go in and contribute?
Stormy: Yeah, I think I think he should jump in and contribute whenever you’re ready, but if you start using a particular piece of software or you’re really involved in a particular area or functionality, it’s really important to meet the people and conferences are a key way of doing that, I think the reason there’s so many virtual conferences right now is because we all really miss what we got out of conferences and so we’re trying to carry that forward with our virtual hallway tracks every week, we have different groups have meet ups every Friday, like, just trying to continue that conversation.
Henry: How have you found the video conferences? What do you think? Do you enjoy them? Do you miss the human to human interactions that you would have at a conference?
Stormy: I really miss the human to human interaction at conferences. I really enjoyed never being jet lagged and not having to sit in an airplane for a while.
Henry: We find out, we went to a conference and we had a booth at the conference, but it just wasn’t the same, I think, because when people are walking around to the booths at an actual conference, when they’re at home, I think they’re cooking or they’re out doing something or they’re working, there’s no flow of people around the booths. But I like to shift gears a little bit and since we’re touching on Microsoft contributing to open source, I also wanted to see what some of the best practices are that Microsoft adopts when it comes to actually open sourcing company projects.
Stormy: So inner-source, inner-source probably has been around for longer than open source, but actually I think it is younger in its evolution than open source, so we’re still trying to figure out what the best practices are and how to implement them within companies. I do think that inner-source at Microsoft is exposing some of the cultural differences, exposing our own culture, so one of the good things about Microsoft culture, and then I’d say, Microsoft has a really strong sense of ownership around software, so if I wrote a piece of software, say a little tool and you found it useful and you started using it and 20 people were using it across Microsoft, 20 teams, if anything went wrong with it, those teams would look to me and I would fix it, because that’s my software and I’m responsible for it, it’s obvious I’m going to fix it and you wouldn’t touch it because, like, you’d be messing with my code and that would just be weird, but open source and inner source require a different mindset so that one is a good mindset, but they require a different good mindset where if you find a problem, you take a look at it and you say, Oh Stormy, I think it would be better if you did it this way and you give me a pull request with the fix already there and I review it instead of writing my own, so I think inner-source is exposing more of that internal culture and changes that we can make to make it even better, but it does borrow a lot from the success of open source.
Henry: Okay, and if, say for internal software that you use, if you decide to open source it, I guess, what does the process look like, actually, I first start with the question of, if you open source, say, a company project and you want to be with an open source community around that, yet, still maintain control, let’s say you sense a flow as an example. What does the process look like or when should you open source that code or when does Microsoft know they should open source code rather than keep it proprietary?
Best practices for open-sourcing company code
Stormy: I don’t think there’s any one answer for that, it’s going to depend on the project, but I think the sooner you open source, the better often, you want the clear vision of what it should do and where you want to go, and it needs to have like a minimum viable product to it, but open sourcing it sooner and letting people collaborate with you and its creation is, if you can do that, is awesome. Now, often we get asked to open source something or we decide to open source something after it’s been around for a long time, so that’s not bad, it’s just, you’re more likely to get people more involved if it’s earlier in the process, once you open source; I think the key is less about control and more about inviting people in and so finding the users, the people that might want to have some need for that piece of software and inviting them to participate and I think we found that that’s one of the keys to open source software, is that our developers are no longer getting requirements from product marketing, they’re no longer getting the requirements from the support team, they’re no longer getting requirements from the sales team, they’re actually talking directly to customers through GitHub or wherever they’re working and they’re hearing directly from customers, what customers need of that piece of software.
Henry: And that is probably a more efficient system, people can just get straight to the work because I guess you don’t have to go through a big bureaucratic process. What have you found to be effective ways of growing a community around, say, an open source company project and what are some examples of open source company projects that you’ve seen, I guess, those kinds of strategies work well?
Stormy: So I think some of it is getting the word out, figure out who’s using it, events are actually a really key part of that and especially a lot of projects with that bring into, large projects have events just for that project, but most sizable projects have some kind of annual event, either of their own or some other event where they get everybody together. So, I think the in-person contact is key to growing a project.
Henry: Okay, one thing that has just crossed my mind, I think I’d like to jump back to is the idea of inner-source, what is really an inner-source culture, because I know we brought it up when talking about open sourcing company projects, but for other companies out there, how do you define inner-source? What is it?
What is innersource?
Stormy: So a company of any size, whether they’re a software company or an automotive company or a retail company, has suffered that they’ve written this part of their infrastructure, their solution, and inner-source the ability for anybody at the company to contribute to that software, to use it, to see how it was written to reuse code, so it’s taking all the benefits of open source software within that company and even in a more intimate environment, so I can reuse code instead of rewriting something, so my company’s not paying three different people to write the same thing, even if I’m not in IT department, and I’m using the IT software and it has a bug, I can fix it myself and contribute back, it’s enabling tools to be used across multiple teams, it’s enabling code itself to be reused, so it’s open source, but within the within the walls of a company, which sometimes, it’s hard to open source things because maybe not unlock the whole intellectual property for it or you haven’t gone through all the homework to make sure it’s okay and safe to be licensed that way, inner-source does away with that because it’s all within the walls of your company, so it’s even easier.
Henry: And that fall under the domain of the open source program office?
Stormy: It depends on the company, in Microsoft it is, but not that every company.
Henry: Every company is different, okay, that makes sense. One thing also, since you’ve been at companies and you’ve had a fantastic career in open source and you’ve been from HP, I know open logic and a lot of other companies, Red Hat and Microsoft, throughout that time, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you’ve seen companies make when either using or contributing to open source software?
Mistakes companies make contributing to open source projects they rely on
Stormy: I’m definitely an optimist. I don’t usually focus on what people do wrong, I think the thing we did wrong in the beginning is a lot of people were very fear driven, like, so they were driven by like, what happens if we accidentally copyleft our software? What happens if we accidentally release something we shouldn’t or if we get sued? I personally think that fear driven motivation doesn’t lead to good decision making, it doesn’t lead to as much collaborative behavior as a more what can we do with this new model focus
Henry: And is that shifting now, though – and have you found that fear driven perspective, is it still around? Are people still worried or is it completely changed?
Stormy: I think people are still worried to some extent, but I see an active interest in and not focusing on it, so I told you when I was talking to Microsoft customers, their first question is always, where should my open source programs office, should it be in engineering, should it be in marketing? The second question is usually, how do I convince managements to sponsor this, how do I get them to give me money to do this? And I always tell them, it used to be, we used the fear model and all of them are pretty clear on like that’s not where they want to go, which is awesome.
Henry: And that is good and it’s definitely a great development, it is exciting to see. One thing that I wanted to touch on was the idea of giving back to communities, because a lot of open source, a lot of companies these days rely on open source and they have the need of wanting to give back, so through contributions, by funding the project, what are different ways that companies can actually give back to the projects that they rely on rather than just, say, contributing code?
How enterprises can give back to open source communities
Stormy: So they should definitely contribute code and then I say companies often can contribute things that projects might not have, so at Microsoft, we have teams focused on accessibility, which a project might not have someone focused entirely on accessibility, so if we see things we can contribute in that area, that’s even more valuable, same with design and product management, documentation, all those areas around code but that are necessary, that’s really important.
There is money, so you can give money to projects and we actually started one this year called Fossfund, where every month we give ten thousand dollars to a project that Microsoft depends on, that might not get any official funding from other places, actually Don O’Brienfrom indeed started it and various companies have picked it up, so it’s a fun theme.
Henry: I think that’s fantastic.
Stormy: Yeah and we let employees nominate and vote on which projects should get the funding, so you could give areas around code, you could give money directly, you could give marketing in a sense, so when big companies talk about like here’s our software, and it uses Apache, like that’s really good for the Apache project, so we can give marketing and recognition and awareness to those projects so that others know about it.
I think there’s a lot of ways to to give back, you could do actually evangelism like Microsoft has developer advocates for a lot of open source software projects and they’re out there talking about those and helping people figure out how to use them.
Henry: Okay and that’s good to say that Microsoft is such a big company is giving back like that, because I think we’ll start to see even smaller companies start to give back in other ways and just contributing code, but how have you seen the shift? Because previously, I think people had at least from what I heard, I wasn’t in open source at the time, but the attitude towards paying for open source was just something that people couldn’t even fathom, yet now people are starting to pay for open source. So how have companies been changing the way that they actually paying for open source? I know you mentioned was a donation, are there other ways that people have paid?
Stormy: So I think there’s been a big shift in the last 20 years from like most people that worked on open source software, did so in their free time in the evenings and weekends to, I think, a majority of open source software developers these days have a full time paid job they’re working on it. So that’s another way companies are contributing back, because they’re paying full time software developers to work on projects, I think also with the shift to the cloud and to much more complicated software solutions, there’s been the recognition that software isn’t, you’re not only just paying for the code, you’re paying for the service, you’re paying for how it all works together, you’re paying for more than that.
Henry: What do you use as service providers at Microsoft? How do you say get the support or training and different services that you need for open source projects that you use? Do you do that internally? Do you have a team that manages it or do you, say, use contracted service providers?
Microsoft manages all open source technologies internally
Stormy: So Microsoft has a lot of the solutions ourselves, I’m not exactly sure which services you’re referring to, but we have programs to actually help startup companies, to help services that want to provide services through Azure, so in general, we provide those types of resources to others.
Henry: Okay, we’re coming to the end now and I wanted to ask two more questions, one of them being what are some of the trends that you’ve seen that companies really should be aware of or enterprises should be aware of in the coming years?
Trends companies should be aware of with regards to the future of open source
Stormy: Well, open source software is really here to stay, but it still continues to be like the headline, I think people will continue to collaborate more and more and I think the solutions are, there’s a couple different trends, I guess, but one of them, I think is key is that it’s we have to figure out how to balance the volunteers with the paid staff, so a lot of the software solutions are becoming so complicated that you kind of have to focus on them full time to be able to make a meaningful contribution and we need to make sure that there’s a good balance and good room for volunteers to still focus on it, not just volunteers, but maybe our customers who just have a couple of hours to try to fix a problem, so I think balancing the complexity of the solution, but making it simple for people to contribute is something we need to continue to focus on.
Henry: Okay, that was fantastic and I know you said that you were an optimist and before and so I’m really excited to ask this question, but what are you most excited about with regards to the future of open source software?
Stormy: I’m most excited about going back to in-person conferences. I think types of problems that we will continue to solve are always evolving, just look at things like wearable tech and all the data that’s available about ourselves and this whole combination of big data and open data with open source software I think is enabling, it’s not just software, but it’s intelligence around our world and how we interact with it, that I think this is going to be really amazing, we’ve seen this with Covid, Microsoft and many others have played around with a lot of data around Covid to try to build models and help us understand where we’re at and where we’re moving and what’s working and what’s not working and I think continuing to play with that data in an open ways that we can collaborate together is going to change the world.
Henry: And it is changing the world and a software is eating the world, but now open source software is eating everything arguably, and it’s so exciting to be part of this movement. I’ve only been around for about a year, but I know you’ve been around for longer than that and I just want to thank you for your time, because I’m so happy that you were able to come on the podcast, it’s been great talking with you and I wish you all the best going forward.
Stormy: Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for having me.
Henry: Thank you. And for all of those listening, if you liked what you listened to today or if you watched it on YouTube, then please like this video, please subscribe and leave rating and review, letting us know what you think of the podcast, that’s the only way we can improve, but also shows a lot of support. So, thank you very much everyone, stay safe and until next time. See you later.